finding an island of order in an ocean of randomness

Do we really trade wat our chart analysis says ?

2008-12-09T00:32:00.000-08:00

some of my previous views have created controversies even lead to deleting my posts in some communities and forums.those who want to argue with me.here comes other one.i have a question for everyone who claims to be a technical analyst and use subjective methods and doesnt use automatic trading systems.my question is do we always trade using charts or we just use charts to justif our views ?.for example a bearish person would find weakness on a stock which is at all time highs he will find some sort of target there or find all his indicators overbot.if person is bullish he will find something bullish on stock which is making lows some old support, some fibonnacci target or some triangle will always be there to justify his view.in most of the times all we are seeing in ur chart are our biases.biases can come from many places if we are stuck in some stock .to satisfy our ego our brain will only look for the indications on your side of the trade and unknowingly ignore or filter the indications against our position on the chart.there can be other reasons also like market sentiment ,some friends view, media tv newspapers ,some bad news on a stock or a person u think is a fool is long on stock there can be millions of reasons that can create biases and currupt our power of logic and ability.so is ta useless for discreationary guys?.well i wont say that offcourse there will be exceptions the guys who can almost get unbiased but those are quite rare and it can help in risk management setting stops or stuff. many of us will say that they wer right in the past.then my answer is it would be due to their natural instinct or product of luck even by luck we can be right 50% of time.but i will never agree with the view that trading is as easy as drawing trend lines , calculationg some fibonnacci numbers or other stuff.it requires more than that our own red trading record gives the best answer to this.(this article is just my view it can be wrong.but still ask this question to yourself honestly keeping your ego aside. and observe yourself for sometime.you may find me right. other disclosure:- i m not that good in english )

psycology and mindset required for trading

2008-12-07T01:35:00.000-08:00

in van tharpe's trading model psycology and risk management combined contribute almost 90% and trading system just only 10%.but when i look around people who are trading are hardly talking about trading psycology probably one of the the biggest reasons why all r losing.to me right psycology is most important component of winning trading.to trade a system and to apply strong risk managment u need a winning psycology.but wat that right psycology is ,what seperates winners from losers other than luck.well in almost all decent trading books u will find something of a sort writtien on trading psycology.in my view getting a right mindset is more of a product of self discovery.as in this world nothing is totally same. u will never find 2 fully identical people.well even 2 trees r never same.anything created by nature has its own unique characteristics which r never same with even the organism of same species.there will always be some difference.even non living natural things like mountains etc have there own uniqueness.mother nature never creates 2 fully identical things.everything is unique in same way each and every person trading has its own unique style of trading which can match with other traders but can never be totally same.so each person needs to work of its own to self discover himself to some extent.As per my view right mindset for trading contains survivalship bias.in trading if you survive for some time there will be a time when u will get lucky and will make money.sticking and hanging in there is most important.one must be prepared for the losses you cant make money everyday.after survival fear is other big enemy of a trader.a trader should be fearless he should not be afraid of losses.he should be brave enough to execute his trades freely.he should be brave enough to keep his trades long enough to make his profits big.
thirdly as mentioned almost everywhere in all trading books hope is a cancer for trader.But there are other few aspects that are very rarely discussed that is ego and self esteem you feel ashamed of your losses.you cant able to face or call your broker to square off losing positions. and many other problems caused by the ego.a trader should learn that he can afford to lose small battles but cant afford to lose a war

ALERT

2008-11-21T22:59:00.000-08:00

hello everyone, i m restarting the blog.but from now the blog may not make sense.things that i write may not remain confined to market.and it may get really chaotic.

Mark Douglas on why people start trading and why so few people get success

2008-03-01T22:58:00.000-08:00

In January 1994, I was asked to speak at a trading conference in
Chicago, sponsored by Futures Magazine. At one of the luncheons I
happened to be sitting next to an editor for one of the major publishers
of books about trading. We were having a lively conversation
about why so few people become successful at trading, even people
who are otherwise very accomplished. At one point, the editor asked
me if a possible explanation for this phenomenon might be that people
were getting into trading for the wrong reasons.
ATTRACTION
I had to pause for a moment to think about this. I agree that many of
the typical reasons people are motivated to trade—the action, euphoria,
desire to be a hero, the attention one can draw to himself by winning,
or the self-pity that comes from losing—create problems that
will ultimately detract from a traders performance and overall success.
But the true underlying attraction to trading is far more fundamental
and universal. Trading is an activity that offers the individual
unlimited freedom of creative expression, a freedom of expression
that has been denied most of us for most of our lives.
Of course, the editor asked me what I meant by this. I explained
that in the trading environment, we make almost all of the rules. This
means there are very few restrictions or boundaries on how we can
choose to express ourselves. Of course there are some formalities
such as having to become a member of an exchange to be a floor
trader, or meeting the minimum financial requirements to open a
brokerage account if you're an off-the-floor trader. But otherwise,
once you are in a position to start trading, the possibilities that exist
for how you go about doing it are virtually limitless.
I went on to give him an example from a seminar I attended
several years ago. Someone had calculated that, if you combined
bond futures, bond options, and the cash bond markets, there would
be over eight billion possible spread combinations. Now add the
timing considerations based on how you read the prevailing market
conditions, and the various ways to trade become virtually limitless.
The editor paused for a moment and asked, "But why would
having access to such an unrestricted environment result in fairly
consistent failure?" I answered, "Because unlimited possibilities
coupled with the unlimited freedom to take advantage of those
possibilities present the individual with unique and specialized
psychological challenges, challenges that very few people are
properly equipped to deal with, or have any awareness of for that
matter, and people can't exactly work on overcoming something if
they don't even know its a problem."
The freedom is great. All of us seem to naturally want it, strive for
it, even crave it. But that doesn't mean that we have the appropriate
psychological resources to operate effectively in an environment that
has few, if any, boundaries and where the potential to do enormous
damage to ourselves exists. Almost everyone needs to make some
mental adjustments, regardless of their educational background,
intelligence or how successful they've been in other endeavors.
The kind of adjustments I'm talking about have to do with creating
an internal mental structure that provides the trader with the
greatest degree of balance between the freedom to do anything and
the potential that exists to experience both the financial and psychological
damage that can be a direct result of that freedom.
Creating a mental structure can be difficult enough, especially if
what you want to instill is in conflict with what you already believe. But
for those of us who want to be traders, the difficulty of creating the
appropriate structure is invariably compounded by a backlog of mental
resistance that starts developing at the very earliest stages of our lives.
All of us are born into some sort of social environment. A social
environment (or society), whether it's a family, city, state, or country,
implies the existence of structure. Social structures consist of rules,
restrictions, boundaries, and a set of beliefs that become a code of
behavior that limits the ways in which individuals within that social
structure can or cannot express themselves. Furthermore, most of
the limitations of social structure were established before we are
born. In other words, by the time any of us get here, most of the
social structure governing our individual expression is in place and
well entrenched.
It's easy to see why a society's need for structure and the individual's
need for self-expression can conflict. Every person who wants
to master the art of trading faces just such a fundamental conflict.
I'd like you to ask yourself what one characteristic (a form of
personal expression) is common to every child born on this planet,
regardless of the location, culture, or social situation the child is born
into. The answer is curiosity. Every child is curious. Every child is
eager to learn. They can be described as little learning machines.
Consider the nature of curiosity. At its most fundamental level,
it is a force. More specifically, it is an inner-directed force, which
means there's no necessity to motivate a child to learn something.
Left on their own, children will naturally explore their surroundings.
What is more, this inner-directed force also seems to have its own
agenda; in other words, even though all children are curious, not all
children are naturally curious about the same things.
There's something inside each of us that directs our awareness
Even infants seem to know what they want and don't want. When
adults encounter this unique display of individuality expressed by an
infant, they're usually surprised. They assume that infants have nothing
inside of them that makes them uniquely who they are. How else
would infants express their individuality than by what in their environment
attracts or repels them? I call this inner-directed guidance
the force of natural attractions.
Natural attractions are simply those things about which we feel
a natural or passionate interest. Ours is a big and diverse world, and
it offers each of us a great deal to learn about and experience. But
that doesn't mean each of us has a natural or passionate interest in
learning about or experiencing all there is. There's some internal
mechanism that makes us "naturally selective."
If you think about it, I'm sure you could list many things to do
or be that you have absolutely no interest in. I know I could. You
could also make another list of the things you are only marginally
interested in. Finally, you could list everything you have a passionate
interest in. Of course, the lists get smaller as the interest levels rise.
Where does passionate interest come from? My personal view is
that it comes from the deepest level of our being—at the level of our
true identity. It comes from the part of us that exists beyond the characteristics
and personality traits we acquire as a result of our social
upbringing.

The Big Crash,Technical Analysis,Rumours,Survivorship Bias,Luck and Me

2008-01-25T01:44:00.000-08:00

The Big Crash:-It was 18th january friday noon and we wer trding around 5900 and we touched 5900 around 1 pm aftr a weak gapdown opening . From top wer already down quite a bit.from high of around 6330 on 10th january.we wer already down more than 400 points.but till now so called midcap momentum guys wer holding or falling less.but that noon even midcaps momentum joined the bears party.all momentum stocks like nagarfert,rnrl,jindal steel etc came down on average 10% and nifty also within 2 and half hours came to almost 5700 and we shut shop around 5700.On monday most of the asian markets wer down around 3% .so we opened gap down with asia arround 5600.we tried to bounce from 5500 levels .but bounce dint lasted much and we kept declining for the whole day and hit a low of 4979 around 2:45 almost down 12% from previous closing.then a little bounce came and we close at 5200 almost 8 percent down or 500 points down from previous close.momentum future stocks wer almost killed and they all wer down on average of 25-30%.there wer no place to hide . usa was closed But europe was open and it also crashed 5-7% .so on tuesday asia was also down 5-6% on average we opened with down curcuit and when curcuit opened we hit a low of around 4480.we wer down whooping 30% from the highs.from friday to tuesday noon in just 9 hrs of trading we fell almost 1500 points on nifty and most stocks wer crashing rnrl hit a low of 80 it was trading around 240 last week. essar oil came to 110 levels from 350 high of same month.finaly these stocks recovered with market but still they closed down 30-40% with nifty closing around 4900.

IMPACT OF THE FALL:- market lost a whole generation of retail traders.lakhs of people got totally wiped out of markets.it wasnt only the people lost even the sub brokers and brokers wer losing.as lot of their clients accounts went in debit and brokers have to bear those losses.lot of terminals wer shut by exchange and wer not allowed to buy due to lack of margin.Turnover came down drastically in futures.almost 30000-40000 crores worth future positions wer cut in just 2 days.

TECHNICAL ANALYSIS:-until 18th of january everything was fine even we had a some fall from highs still every analyst was positive.the most bearish of technical analysts wer saying 5500-5300.there was no special behaviour by moving averages that is different from earlier declines.none of the oscillators wer sugesting that kind of crash.Macd s ,rsi s all wer normal there was nothing that was suggesting carnage.There was no strange divergence in any of the indicator.none of the elliticians wer having the wave count that suggested 30% fall in 2 days.neither gann fans suggested that bulls will be blown into the space.But still we fell it was surprise for anyone who thought market was predictable.not even one support between 6000 and 4500 held for more than half an hour.All fibonnaci retracements, trendlines wer broken as they dont even existed in real and wer just human superstitions.still people will say that we held 4500 support even that was broken for some time but we had to stop somewhere it was mere coincident that was around 4500 where we stopped.

RUMOURS:- if there would be a fear there would be rumours.but few of the rumours wer weird and almost impossible to happen.here is an example:-

BREAKING NEWS: GLOBAL FINANCIAL MAJOR, CITIBANK GROUP, LIKELY TO FILE FOR BANKRUPTCY THIS WEEK, ON ACCOUNT OF HEAVY LOSSES ON INVESTMENTS ACROSS THE GLOBE IN DIFFERENT ASSET CLASSES. CITI CHIEF, VIKRAM PANDIT IS IN HIGH PRESSURE SITUATION AND LIKELY TO RESIGN. PLS CHECK WITH YOUR SOURCES & TAKE CAUTION IN MARKETS.

this is impossible here is the reason the group message next day :-

PLEASE AVOID CITI BANK RUMOURS ,, ARE U FOOL??????????? THIS BANK IS HAVING NETWORTH OF 2700 BILLION DOLLORS AND ITS SUBPRIME LOSS IS ONLY 18 BILLION DOLLORS........ .CITIGROUPCitibank was founded in 1812 in New York.It has 200 million customer accounts in 100 countriesMore than 300,000 employees$2.4 trillion in assetsSources: Citigroup, Reuters.

if citigroup went bust then it would take the whole worldwide banking system with it.so then even ur fd s r also not safe.which cant happen in a day.but people wer in so much fear that they even believed in this silly rumour.

SURVIVORSHIP BIAS:- the fall was a black swan unexpected unpredictable.(from nassim taleb s book the black swan).so anyone who was using risk management based on the models that uses past events to judge future risk should have been got hit badly or escaped luckily.for retail traders who use margin and leverage and does not do anything to manage risk it was supposed to come one day.there fall is inevitable."Survive first and then make money"George Soros.its my view and that can be wrong that if someone survives in futures trading for 10 yrs.he will probably make a fortune here.I will continue telling myself that u r just here for survival.u cant afford to lose this costly entertainment.just keep stick in there and save urself from the black swans.

MYSELF IN THE CRASH:- The second half of 2007 was just a dream run for me.i was left with just 70k in august.then i made a recovery in falling market of august i recovered most of the losses i had earlier in the yr.then my equity curve shot up wildly and i was up 3500% to 25 lakhs at the end of december.first 2 weeks of january wer flat to down for me.but in third week of january as market was falling i was now again making money.But on monday on 21st january when market opened gap down most of the momentum stocks wer already down 10-15% nifty was also near support.i tried botom fishing and as from last5 months it was alwys paying to buy gap downs.despite one of my gap down pttern that i use was suggsting downward movement. went long market bounced a bit this ncreased my confidence and i added more longs.but the bounce dint lasted for too long.nfty started falling again and break the lows easily i decided to sell in rise.my profits vanished and turned to losses.my stocks that were holding also started to crashand within minuts they crashed badly and wer down 20-25%.i realised the virus of hope was spreading inside me.i should act and i acted and i booked all my losses and i was down 7 lakhs for the day.it was a mistake and i should have acted 20 minutes earlier.there was feeling of uneasiness in my whole body.it was a big risk i should not have taken that big long positions.i controlled my senses and decided to continue trading for trading .it was just 12:30 still 3 hours to go there is still lot more time left to trade and volatility is huge so this is my best time to recover my losses fast and then i was back in synch with markets.and upto the end of days session i recovered almost 80% of the money i lost earlier.Next day tuesday when market open with down curcuit and went to 4450 i again traded properly and recovered most of the losses that wer left and was back in profits i was up 3 lakh for january which was decent performance consdering.most of the retail futures traders got wiped out of the market.so wat saved me from this fall ?as per my view 2 things:-

1st LUCK i was lucky enough to think on monday to book my losses and recover most of the losses same day.

2nd:-my decision of not keeping overnight positions. 4 months back as there was enough volatility and my account size was not so large.so i can afford which big hedge funds cant afford to do. trading intraday.intraday trading is considered risky.but intraday trader is lot safer as one is immune to overnight risksnext day who knows as happened earlier also and market open curcuit down margin trader who use leverage will be wiped out of markets in markets.anything can happen osama can throw a bomb on usa again or any other financial black swan anything is possible.

CONCLUSION OR THE LESSONS LEARNT TILL NOW:-
1.survive first and then make money
2.supports and resistances are just to make bulls and bears hope as eventually they always break.
3.there is no evidence based proof that technical analysis or weird wave theories work.so dont trust these things too much.
4.if u trade in futures or use leverage and dont have any methods to control risk(stoplosses,position sizing etc)u r bound to lose sooner or later.
5.dont get overexcited and too happy on profits until they r in ur trading account.and dont get too depressed due to a loss until u have enough left to recover that money.
6.market is unpredictable.but still money can be made here by controlling risk and by discipline.
7.if u want to invest buy the whole market or the full index nifty.i dont believe buy nd hold can be easily outperformed.
8.charts tells you about past behaviour of markets and it is not necessary that future would be related to that.
9.if u use margin and leverage then use hedging or dont keep them ur positions overnights.
10.majority will always lose in futures market.

(DISCLOSURE:-the motive of ths article is to just remember watever happened and i aso want to see how my beliefs will change in the future from now.as we keep learning and changing with the time.if u read this article and found lots of english mistakes dont mind i m not good in this language).

Please check

2007-12-27T05:04:00.000-08:00

those who downloaded my trading system for amibroker. must check that they r using the parameter settings.recommended by me.right click on the chart and then parameters long ema=34,short ema=8,emaoffset=1 timeframe should be 70 minutes those who dont know how to set it can use hourly.for end of day use long ema=13,short ema=5,ema offset=1.

Add me on orkut

2007-12-24T22:50:00.001-08:00

http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=4811148110753780826

THE DEVIL MARKET

2007-12-21T08:23:00.002-08:00

For most people learning to trade is like a trip to Hell. The Devil Market will torture you in every concievable way, searching out every weakness, stretching every nerve to its breaking point. It will throw you an occasional bone to lure you deeper into the abyss only to strip off more flesh until you are a quivering shell of your former self. Once you get past that stage its a lot of fun (originally from http://epiktetos13.blogspot.com/ )

The Typical Profile

2007-12-21T08:23:00.001-08:00

Studies of brokerage house customers’ portfolios. One report showed the following telltale results:•
The average price at which each stock was bought was higher than the average price at which it was sold.
• The trading methods of each account had undergone a pronounced and obviously unintentional change with the progress of the bull market from one stage to another.
• Stocks that were purchased at a bear market bottom were sold soon after at a moderate profit, even though in a few months these starting prices looked ridiculously cheap.
• As higher levels were established, the same stocks were repurchased at prices considerably higher than those at which they had previously been sold.
• At this stage, larger-percentage profits were the rule (evidence that what was considered a “reasonable gain” had been upped).
• Stop-losses were not in general use at this level, whereas they had been freely placed when prices were lower.
• The acquired confidence of the buyers seemed to have caused them to buy extensively on the first major reaction from the extreme highs.
• These were later liquidated at substantially lower prices. —Don Guyon, One Way Pockets (originally from http://epiktetos13.blogspot.com/ )

Table of confusion;- from nassim taleb s book fooled by randomness

2007-12-07T22:10:00.000-08:00

Nifty Trend Following Trading System For Free

2007-12-07T21:08:00.000-08:00

This was my first trading system i made for nifty trading.it outperforms almost all moving average crossovers in accuracy and returns.the logic behind the system is to enter in the trend as early as possible and then trail it until it lasts.In the trending market on both up and down it will outperform buy nd hold.During huge opening gap downs in nifty.70 minute version has performed poorly.thanks to rajakumar(fnocharts.blogspot.com) for coding the system for me and helping me in the idea.i m giving the system code for amibroker.below are the few screen shots

The trading system is fully automatic one needs to follow the arrows and trade with it simply. http://rapidshare.com/files/75078091/NiftyTradersDualEma.afl.html here is the link for downloading afl.in the afl set parameters setting (long ema=34,short ema=8, ema offset=1)use these setting s for 70 minutes time frame.70 minute time frame is used because it divides our market timing into perfect 5.for eod use param setting as (long ema=13,short ema=5,ema offset=1)

backest report:- using 40% margin thats wat i recommend tradable

All trades Long trades Short trades

Initial capital1000000.00 1000000.00 1000000.00
Ending capital1807359421.38 1704775991.42 103583429.97
Net Profit1806359421.38 1703775991.42 102583429.97
Net Profit %180635.94 % 170377.60 % 10258.34 %
Exposure %89.58 %70.40 %19.18 %
Net Risk Adjusted Return %201651.40 % 242006.33 % 53495.19 %
Annual Return %249.41 %246.02 %116.86 %
Risk Adjusted Return %278.43 %349.45 %609.43 %

i wont be responsible for any profits or losses a person face using this system.it should be used only for nifty not for stock specific.(i generally trade stock specific using different setups.giving this system just for sharing purpose).

Few stories from stockmarket books

2007-06-05T20:37:00.000-07:00

1st story:-

On the path to enlightenment from trading chaos:-a number of years ago i attended a meeting in boulder,colorado,with the newly arrived Swami muktananda from India.he proved to me the most interesting fellow.He gave no lectures; he only told stories and wove those stories in in instructional format.accompanying him was an interpretor,complete with saffron colour robes from the university of colorado.He started his lecture with a following story:-

There was a student who wanted to became a enlighhtented. He left his family in search of an appropriate guru to guide him further on his journey. Stopping at one guru's place of business, he inquired as to this guru's method of becoming enlightened. The guru said,"Becoming enlightened is really quite simple. All you need to do is to go home each night and sit in front of a mirror for 30 minutes asking yourself the same question over and over. That question is :'Who am I? Who am I? Who am I?'" The prospective student replied ,"Hey, it can't be that simple."

"Oh yes, it is just that simple,"replied the guru,"but if you would like a second opinion, there are several other gurus on this street."

"Thank you very much,"said the student,"I think I will inquire down the way."

The student approached the second guru with the same question."How do i become enlightened?"

The second guru replied,"Oh, it is quite difficult and takes much time. Actually, one must join with like-minded others in an ashram and do sava. Sava means 'selfless service,' so you work without pay."

The student was excited; this guru's philosophy was more consistent with his own preconceived veiw of enlightenment. He had always heard it was difficult. The guru told the student that the only job open at the ashram was cleaning out the cow stalls. If the student was really serious about becoming enlightened, the guru would allow him to shovel all the dung and be responsible for keeping the cow stalls clean. The student accepted tjhe job, feeling confident that he must be on the right path.

After five long years of shoveling cow dung and keeping the stalls clean, the student was discouraged and impatient about enlightenment. He approached the guru and said,"honered teacher, i have faithfully served you for five years cleaning up the dirtiest part of your ashram. I have never missed a day and never complained once. Do you think it might be time for me to become enlightened?"

The guru answered,"Why yes, I believe you are ready. Now, here is what you do. You go home every night and look yourself in the mirror for 30 minutes, asking yourself the same question over and over. That question is:'Who am I?Who am I?Who am I?'"

The very surprised student said,"Pardon me, honored one,but that is what the other guru down the street told me five years ago."

"Well, he was right," responded the guru.

i think of the story quite often while trading.I devote part of my time to training people to become full time professional traders.one of the 1st problem i face is convincing people that things r quite simple,but this doesnot mean they r easy.ther is a wide difference between a concept s being simple and being easy to carry out.

looking at yourself in a mirror for 30 minutes each night is a simple concept,but asking yourself same question over and over and seeking an honest answer is not easy.we humand have two innate tendencies 1)we tend to overcomplicate everything we touch and ,because of that. 2)we cannot see the abvious.

(MORAL:-trading is simple, but it is not easy)

Story no 2:-

2 We trade our own belief systems(do we believe wat we see or we see wat we believe?):-

there is a hollywood actor who looks like to get away to his cabin in the mountains in each weekend.he drives there over curvy,mountainous dirt roads.He usually drives ther curvy mountains dirt roads.he usually drives his porsche, convertible and enjoy seeing how fast he can take the curves.he rarely meets anyone on these roads.becoz there r few cabins in the area and even fewer visitors.

on friday afternoon as he zooms through these curves he meets an oncoming car that has careened over into his lane.There is a susbtantial cliff to his right,so he brakes his porche as hard as he can and stops just before a head on collision.The other car is also a convertible.the driver pulls around his stopped porche,she guns her engine,points, and shouts "PIG".this puzzles him.he was in his lane,it certainly wasnt his fault,and he was not "hogging" the road.as she drives off in a cloud of dust,he turns and shouts loudly,"SOW!".

Now he is fuming.he floors the accelerator,gains speed around the next curve, and collides with a large hog standing in the middle of the roa.his interpretation of the other drivers motives and behaviour changes automatically.his response had come not from what she said but from his personal paradigm.

The particular paradigm through which we view the markets determines our feelings and our behaviour.

MORAL:-we trade our own belief systems rather than market.

Story no 3 :-(From trading for a living)

Do you really want to succed or change ;-

For the past 17 yrs i,ve has a frnd whose wife is fat.she is an elegant dresser, and she has been on a diet for as long as i have knows her.she says she want to lose weight and she doesnot eat or potatoes in front of people-but when i come into her kitchen,i often see her go at it with a big fork.sShe says she wants to be a slim,but remains as fat today as the day we met. why?

the short term pleasure of eating is stronger for her than the delayed pleasure and health benefits of weight loss.my friend's wife reminds me of a great many traders wah say they do want to be succesful but keep making impulsive trades-going for a short term thrills of gambling in the markets.

people decieve themselves and play games with themselves.lying to others is bad enough, but lying to yourself is hopeless.bookstores are full of good books on dieting,but the world is full of overweight people.

(this story applies to me a bit also hehehe)